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Posted by tjaalzchess
blitzbrain.net

4/14/2008
11:03:32

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Subject: Mate with only knight and bisschop??

Message:
The endgame is me with only a knight and bishop.

My opponent offers a draw, saying I cant mate her. But is it really impossible to mate someone with bishop, knight and king?





Posted by chessnovice
blitzbrain.net

4/14/2008
12:23:44

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...

Message:
We can't really talk about ongoing, active games.

Posted by ganstaman
blitzbrain.net

4/14/2008
12:46:00

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Message:
Right, we can't offer help in these situations, but printed or online material (not tablebases) can. Check out any endgame book, or something like wikipedia. That will legally help you play the ending.

Just for starters, there should be a useful link somewhere on here: en.wikipedia.org
———
Dortmund Begins — The Sparkassen Chess-Meeting (an odd name, to be sure) began Thursday in Dortmund. Though the chess tournament is not at the level of Linares or Corus, it still attracts top players, notably Vladimir Kramnik, the former world chess champion from Russia. Kramnik has been associated with Dortmund, as the chess event is often referred to, for many years because he has won the tournament nine times, far more than any other. He first won it in 1995 and is the defending champion this year. The tournament is a double-round robin this year, meaning each competitor plays all the others twice, once with each color. In addition to Kramnik, the No. 4 chess player in the world, the field includes ...
Posted by ionadowman
blitzbrain.net

4/14/2008
13:41:28

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Without looking at the position...

Message:
... I think it is reasonable to make a general response to the question.

Yes: a K+B+N can, in general, force mate against a lone K. But the technique isn't easy. In your game (assuming you are already in such an endgame), you have 50 moves to effect the mate from the last pawn move or capture (there are no more pawns to move, and any further capture will instantly reduce the game to a draw through lack of material). Else, it is a draw. I don't think one can say more at this point...
Cheers,
Ion
———
Zhao and Zatonskih Lead Chess Championships — Anna Zatonskih, the defending chess champion, took the lead of the U.S. Women’s Championship on Wednesday, while Parker Zhao, the ninth seed, solidified his grip on the U.S. Junior Championship. The two chess tournaments are being held concurrently at the Chess Club and Scholastic Center of Saint Louis. Zatonskih had shared the lead for the last few rounds with Irina Krush, the top seed. But in Round 5 on Wednesday, Zatonskih beat Iryna Zenyuk, while Krush only drew against Camilla Baginskaite. Zatonskih now leads with 4.5 points, while Krush and Tatev Abrahamyan, who beat Abby Marshall on Wednesday, have 4 each. In the junior championship, Zhao, who ...
Posted by ccmcacollister
blitzbrain.net

4/14/2008
16:07:43

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hmmm

Message:
He didn't say what Color that Bishop was . . . }8-D
———
A Chess Odyssey — One single square can make a big difference in a chess game. It helped me to launch one of my longest combinations against Anatoly Karpov in Caracas 40 years ago. It was a memorable chess tournament for both of us. Karpov arrived in Venezuela as the reigning world junior champion. He played well enough in Caracas to become the world's youngest chess grandmaster at that time, at age 19, and his brilliant career began to take shape. In 1971 in Moscow, he clinched the first major tournament victory, sharing first place with the three-time Soviet champion Leonid Stein at the prestigious Alekhine Memorial tournament. In 1975 he was crowned the world chess champion. This year ...
Posted by marinvukusic
blitzbrain.net

4/15/2008
00:54:39

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...

Message:
That is probably the most difficult practical ending in chess (I am not counting studies obviously).

In Blitz:
- I couldn't deliver that mate against a significantly weaker player
- One IM couldn't mate me
- I watched a FM fail to deliver the mate

I am confident I could do it in correspondence chess without any help but it is objectively not to be expected from a player of your rating. That does not mean you can't learn how to do it before you end the game.

Use of tablebases is forbidden.
———
Fast Pace Continues at Two U.S. Chess Championships — The top two seeds in the U.S. Women’s Chess Championship could make no headway against each other and drew their Round 3 game on Monday. But their two nearest competitors lost, so Irina Krush and Anna Zatonskih now lead the chess tournament by half a point over Tatev Abrahamyan, Alisa Melekhina (who lost to Abrahamyan on Monday) and Iryna Zenyuk, who lost on Monday to Beatriz Marinello. In the U.S. Junior Chess Championship, which is being held concurrently at the Chess Club and Scholastic Center of Saint Louis, Warren Harper, the seventh seed, is the surprising leader after three rounds with a perfect score. His play so far has been stellar and on Monday he demolished his ...
Posted by tjaalzchess
blitzbrain.net

4/15/2008
01:06:38

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Message:
Thanks for the response.

I wasn't asking for help, but just a simple yes or no ( possible or impossible ), because I had never seen a endgame with knight and bishop.

———
Anatoly Karpov out for a fight — Anatoly Karpov and some supporting chess federations have filed a lawsuit against FIDE in the Court of Arbitration for Sport in Lausanne. Karpov's lawyers, White & Case, are a global firm based in Manhattan. They seek nothing less than the disqualification of the incumbent FIDE President Kirsan Ilyumzhinov who is standing for a fifth term. The rules demand that at least one member of a Presidential ticket be female and Ilyumzhinov's choice is American WIM Beatriz Marinello. Supporting documents indicate Ms Marinello was not nominated by the US Chess Federation but by her native Chile and Brazil. Karpov contends she is not even a member of either chess federation. Karpov's lawyers also ...
Posted by 8ballphoenix
blitzbrain.net

4/15/2008
12:38:14

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Somewhere

Message:
Amongst the annotated games a few months ago someone (I can't remember who) posted a few complicated endgame studies, one of which was a K+N+B vs K endgame. Obviously this wouldn't help with the game in question as it only studies from one position, with one sequence of moves, but it does explain the general technique.

Is there any way of searching the annotated games for a particular game?

I've not yet been in a position where I have to achieve this mate, though I have been close a few times. Should it happen I'm not sure I could see it through but it would be interesting to try and I too wouldn't accept a draw offer. I certainly wouldn't expect my opponent to resign though.

Incidentally I have played the person mentioned several times and in her defence have always found her to be a polite and pleasant opponent.


Posted by ionadowman
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4/15/2008
13:34:52

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Bragging time!

Message:
I've had B+N+K vs lone K 3 times in the past - and won them all.

I ought to leave it at that, but I have to confess that I've been lucky on all three occasions for the pieces already to be very favourably placed so that the mate was achieved in maybe a dozen or so moves. It helped, too, that I knew what the forced mate position should look like.

It also has to be admitted that all 3 were pick-up games - not a single tournament game among them. The only time I saw such an ending in a tournament game was at the universities' Arts Festival in Auckland, 1972. Both were strong players (I'll call them Roger and Craig), but Craig was expected to win. Instead Roger attacked from the gun, Craig had to defend the whole game and finally baled out into this ending. And Roger could not win it. Not in 50 moves. Draw.

Altogether and interesting endgame.
Cheers,
Ion


Posted by lighttotheright
blitzbrain.net

4/15/2008
21:28:03

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Message:
That is interesting...a draw between two strong players in this endgame! It's possible.

I know this BN vs. K endgame like the back of my hand. I used to study it all the time before I moved onto the more difficult endgames. I don't even have to think while playing it and can beat anyone or any computer in 32 moves or less from any position. It is easy for me.

Although this particular endgame is rare, studying it is valuable because you learn the relationship between the knight and bishop. This translates into better play in the middle game. Also openings tend to be less timid.


Posted by marinvukusic
blitzbrain.net

4/16/2008
04:15:02

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Interesting quote from Wikipedia

Message:
"Although this is classified as one of the four "basic checkmates" (the others being king and queen; king and rook; or king and two bishops against a lone king), it only occurs in practice approximately once in every 5000 games (Müller & Lamprecht 2001)."

Sounds about right. This is the precise reason many strong players have problems with it in time trouble (and obviously time trouble is common in OTB chess). Everybody learns it at some point in time but after a few years of never even seeing it the player forgets (and does not refresh his memory practicing a technique that is viewed as unlikely to ever be needed).

The method is not 100% intuitive and there is a pretty small margin of error - 33 moves are needed to deliver chackmate in worst case scenarion, and every slip can easily extend the process beyond 50 moves.


Posted by lighttotheright
blitzbrain.net

4/16/2008
06:51:14

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Message:
Although every book I've seen on the subject says 33 moves, I've proved to my satisfaction that it can be done in 32 or less. Again, the technique to reduce the endgame by the one move seems counter-intuitive at first (but with a deeper analysis it actually makes perfect sense).

Most tutorials on the subject only tell you that you need to drive the King to the edge and then to a corner. The detailed explanations only come with driving the King from the wrong corner into the correct corner and then delivering mate. Most leave it up to the student to figure out how to drive the King out of the center of the board.

If you drive the King out of the center in the proper way, then your King does not need to travel as much to create the necessary opposition to 'force the hand of the defender'. You save at least a move in the worse scenario and are much less likely to make a mistake because the technique is clearer (at least in my mind).


Posted by tjaalzchess
blitzbrain.net

4/16/2008
07:49:26

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Resigned

Message:
to bad my opponent resigned

I was going to checkmate her :

game

The next steps would be :

96. Kh7 Kf7
97. Kh6 Bh4
98. Kh7 Bg5
99. Kh8 Ng6+
100. Kh7 Nf8+
101. Kh8 Bf6#

( mate in 18 moves from last capture)



Posted by tim_b
blitzbrain.net

4/16/2008
08:42:49

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Nice one!

Message:
The title of the tournament is appropriate - it wasn't a draw and you proved it.

Posted by ionadowman
blitzbrain.net

4/16/2008
13:51:32

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I think I can guess...

Message:
... why your opponent got so toey: she threw away a fine chance to bring the thing to a quick draw. Here's the plot, with white about to play her 40th move:
w
White played 40.h4!!
Now, after Black's reply, it is possible she thought she had blundered...
40...Nf8+
But White's next was the mistake...
41.Kf5?? ...
White had an instant draw with 41.Kd5!, and after the bishop moves, 42.Rh8 ... 43.Rxf8+. Protecting the bishop don't help (41...Nd7 42.Rxd7), nor does taking the rook (41...Nxh7 42.Kxc5). Black had no way to avert the loss of one of the minor pieces, so it's an easy draw. Almost study-like...
Cheers,
Ion


Posted by tjaalzchess
blitzbrain.net

4/17/2008
00:28:44

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Message:
Yes I also saw that mistake.Before that point I would have been happy with a draw, so I was prepared for a bishop - rook exchange. Things turned out different.

Charles


Posted by ionadowman
blitzbrain.net

4/25/2008
15:06:10

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Incidentally...

Message:
... If you want to see R+2P vs B+N, check out sago vs ionadowman. Sorry - can't give the link; the game was played nearly a year ago now...
Cheers,
Ion


Posted by bonsai
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4/25/2008
15:32:37

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32 moves - counter example

Message:
Regarding lighttotheright's comment:"Although every book I've seen on the subject says 33 moves, I've proved to my satisfaction that it can be done in 32 or less. "

No, a counter example is white to move (mate in 33):
white: Ka1, Bc1, Nb1
black: Kc2


Posted by heinzkat
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4/25/2008
16:24:23

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Message:
game

Posted by lighttotheright
blitzbrain.net

4/26/2008
12:54:36

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Message:
bonsai--That is a good find, but...

When is that position ever going to turn up in a game?

It's a little bit like expecting to be able to mate in the wrong corner, isn't it?


Posted by tag1153
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5/27/2008
15:46:21

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My first on GK

Message:
gameknot.com

Posted by ionadowman
blitzbrain.net

5/28/2008
01:00:34

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tag1153...

Message:
Not bad! Decisively finished, too.
A belated thanks to heinzkat, too, for providing the link to my game vs sago. I still haven't finished annotating the thing...
Cheers,
Ion


Posted by buddie
blitzbrain.net

5/28/2008
15:28:43

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K, B + N Mate

Message:
Here I am on the wrong end of the K,B + N mate.
game

By the way, anyone played a game on GK longer than 130 moves?


Posted by ccmcacollister
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5/28/2008
16:37:45

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buddie ...

Message:
I don't know about other games, but one here on GK was over 3000 moves. Obviously they were trying to make it as long as possible. IMO 130 is quite long for a "real" game.
* * * * * * *
I've only had one of mine, maybe two, go that long in my 30+ years of playing otb tournaments. And the one I recall was an endgame of R vs R+N with no pawns, vs a Master, and took over 8 hours to play! Naturally, I was on the weak side of that ending, but did manage to Draw when we both got so tired an important move was overlooked which made it impossible to be won within the "50 Move Rule".


Posted by loreta
blitzbrain.net

6/02/2008
06:49:28

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K + B + N vs K

Message:
all depends on a color of chessboard ....